how about a more modern miner willy sprite?

[gabriele amore]

I was toying with AGD and while modding my bagman sprite i came up with this ... i thought it could be a good remake of the original miner willy sprite ... just a suggestion..anyone interested?

[R-Tape]

Ooh that's a cool idea Gab - a speccy version of Manic Miner, with the same levels tarted up. Are you thinking AGD, coded, or a MOD? It couldn't be a MOD using that sprite above as it's too wide. I'd pay good money to see your take on it in MPAGD though! Heck, even if it's just mock ups I'd love to see it.

[ParadigmShifter]

It's not technically too wide for a mod, as long as all animation frames fit within a 16x16 square of pixels.

* Manic Miner does not do any sprite shifting at all - all horizontally moving sprites fit inside a 16x16 pixel square. Once anim frame reaches a multiple of 4, it adjusts the X position by +8 (one character cell). EDIT: That's why horizontal guardians are skinnier than vertical guardians.

* It does do pixel perfect collision though so changing the shape of your Willy may make some enemies harder to avoid.

However, I am interested in an 8 frame version of a Miner Willy sprite, that moves his head 1 pixel at a time, might even be arsed to attempt to get my ancient Turbo Manic Miner engine running at 50fps if possible (would probably need a complete rewrite but I have all the existing code as a basis anyway). Some levels ran at 50fps (some dropped to 16fps though but I didn't bother optimising it, could definitely improve it, may be able to get it running at 50fps). 2 pixel movement is too fast for a playable game though (at 50fps) which is why it would need 1 pixel movement instead of 2 pixel movement per frame. EDIT: Guardians could update every other frame though it's just the player sprite really that would be nice if it moved 1 pixel per frame.

If I was going to rewrite I could make Miner Willy (and probably only Miner Willy) not move in character cell boundaries (i.e. could draw a sprite spanning 3 character cells instead of 2)... that probably also has big implications for the collision though, so it would be better (at least at first) to keep the restriction that all horizontally moving sprites fit inside 16x16 pixel box.

I expect moving 1 pixel at a time would require drawing Miner Willy as a special case spanning 3 character cells though, since currently the 4th frame of the anim touches one of the edges IIRC (i.e. it would probably be hard to fit the anim inside a 16x16 pixel box doing that).

Nice sprite anyway btw.

[gabriele amore]

Ooh that's a cool idea Gab - a speccy version of Manic Miner, with the same levels tarted up. Are you thinking AGD, coded, or a MOD? It couldn't be a MOD using that sprite above as it's too wide. I'd pay good money to see your take on it in MPAGD though! Heck, even if it's just mock ups I'd love to see it.

thanks
I was thinking about a MOD ... i can only understand the first sentence in ParadigmShifter reply... but it seems to me that it could be ok to use 16x16 sprites? otherwise i could try to make some AGD game inspired to MM
but I already know it would turn out to be a different one (i kind of hate left/right and up/down enemies... altough i occasionally used them myself)

[ParadigmShifter]

Another thing that would be weird about using that sprite is that is the frame where you are overhanging a ledge and if you move one step more you fall off, so with the rear foot raised it might look a bit weird.

It would be a replacement for this frame



Although if there were 7 frames that would not be the maximal overhang, that would occur 1 step forward, so the rear foot should be planted on the ground on that frame if it were to exist.

[ParadigmShifter]

thanks
I was thinking about a MOD ... i can only understand the first sentence in ParadigmShifter reply... but it seems to me that it could be ok to use 16x16 sprites? otherwise i could try to make some AGD game inspired to MM
but I already know it would turn out to be a different one (i kind of hate left/right and up/down enemies... altough i occasionally used them myself)

You can use 16x16 sprites, but they are never drawn at an X position that is not a multiple of 8 (i.e. it does not shift the 16x16 sprite in X at all).

It always draws a sprite at (x position)/8 and (remainder when x position/8)/2 gives you the animation frame.

AGD does shift sprites I believe (i.e. they can span more than 2 character cells). Vanilla Manic Miner/JSW never does that.

[R-Tape]

thanks
I was thinking about a MOD ... i can only understand the first sentence in ParadigmShifter reply... but it seems to me that it could be ok to use 16x16 sprites?

What we mean is that Willy is a thin sprite, compared to most games. His standing state occupies 16 pixels high and only 8 wide. Most sprites, like yours here, occupy nearly all the 16 pixels all the time. It's do-able as a MOD of Manic Miner, but you have less space than you're used to - the sprites are spread across 24 pixels at maximum stretch in AGD.

otherwise i could try to make some AGD game inspired to MM

I'm quite excited about this!

EDIT - I'd be interested to see your MPAGD take on each room. No need to rule out horizontal and vertical patrolling baddies entirely though

[ParadigmShifter]

Yeah that's what I meant, and I went to all this effort to do this

Code: Select all

.....##.........
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        .......##.......
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        ...#####........
        ....##.#........
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which shows how the sprites move. EDIT: So they move 8 pixels at a time, and only ever span 2 character cell width. AGD can draw 16x16 sprites spanning 3 character cells as R-Tape said.

I'm interested in an 8 frame version where the head moves only 1 pixel per frame though, that still fits the restrictions we have. currently though.

I did a complete rewrite of the MM levels (no frontend or death sequence though) and that was 100% accurate I think (maybe some of the solar power beams were a bit off, I think the logic involved with those is a bit strange in the original?), although the code is ancient and too complicated.

I'm pretty sure I could do a version that runs at 50fps now though (maybe have to ditch the tune?), since I am a lot better at coding Z80 these days. I could probably do a version that runs at 25fps with new sprites (Miner Willy could be 16 pixels wide on all anim frames then I suppose), but I don't think I could make all the guardians do that (maybe I could, would have to preshift the sprites which is doable since there's only 2 types per level - horizontal and vertical) and I saved a ton of space by (run length encoding) compressing the levels. I could preshift the guardians on entry to the level into a big buffer.

I could probably ditch the complicated dirty buffer drawing I was doing and draw directly to the screen as well, saving another 4K (which is the size of the backbuffer).

EDIT: Note - changing the shape (width) of Willy or the guardians would definitely impact the collision detection though, which may make some levels much harder or impossible? (I'm thinking telephones level where you can stand here



and not get hit) - which means you can just drop off the ledge above and you don't get hit by the vertical telephone, even if it is moving past you at the time.

[ParadigmShifter]

What we mean is that Willy is a thin sprite, compared to most games. His standing state occupies 16 pixels high and only 8 wide. Most sprites, like yours here, occupy nearly all the 16 pixels all the time. It's do-able as a MOD of Manic Miner, but you have less space than you're used to - the sprites are spread across 24 pixels at maximum stretch in AGD.

He said as he posted an image that was clearly 10 pixels wide at some point in the animation EDIT: I know it's not his standing stance though. But anim frame in MM is tied to your X coordinate so all frames are a stance really

Why the width affects the collision: MM and JSW do pixel-perfect collision between Willy and the guardians... it does not use a bounding box like most modern games do. So the wider you are and the wider the guardians are, the more likely you are to hit them.

We could CHANGE the collision so it uses a bounding box instead of pixel perfect collision though I suppose. That's not really MM then though I think.

Only guardian collision is pixel perfect though, spikes and pickups you collect as soon as you enter the cell they are in (as far as I know, and that's what I did in my rewrite), so it's not that expensive (and you can do a bounding box check before you do the pixel perfect check too).

[gabriele amore]

ok maybe this should work... right? I am trying to instill more character in the sprite ...

[ParadigmShifter]

Yeah that's the sort of thing that would be needed for a mod. EDIT: That has 5 frames though, the last frame is just the first frame again but the text column is increased by 1 (i.e. it's frame 1 again just moved 8 pixels in X).

If you stand still it might look a bit weird standing on one leg though.

Those would probably work for Manic Miner but I think in JSW (which I don't like anyway) and maybe some modded levels of MM there are situations where you have to stand in the position where you are only 8 pixels wide (I think "The Nightmare Room" has a situation like that, at least from playthrough I watched once) where you have to stand in a particular place to avoid the enemies on each side.

I'm still interested in an 8 frame version too. (Note, that still only moves 8 pixels over in a total of 8 frames, that would be for 50fps which is way too fast for how the sprites are atm where you move 2 pixels a frame). So I am looking for inbetween frames not extra frames extending the walk cycle distance.

It might also be an idea to add an idle frame for each one where legs are on the ground, could then switch from leg in air to idle after a while of no movement. Obviously that would require a full code rewrite like what I did than just a mod (same goes for 8 frame version of course).

[gabriele amore]

Yeah that's the sort of thing that would be needed for a mod. EDIT: That has 5 frames though, the last frame is just the first frame again but the text column is increased by 1 (i.e. it's frame 1 again just moved 8 pixels in X).

If you stand still it might look a bit weird standing on one leg though.
...

Ok my point is that a more detailed (and interesting) sprite can be made even if it has to be confined in a 8 pixels-wide grid. the frames can be adjusted so that when Willie stands still it can look allright
I just wanted to know if anyone would be interested in a more modern look for the sprites in the original game (or any of its derivatives)

[ParadigmShifter]

Ok my point is that a more detailed sprite can be made even if it has to be confined in a 8 pixels-wide grid. the frames can be adjusted so that when Willie stands still it can look allright
I just wanted to know if anyone would be interested in a more modern look for the sprites in the original game (or any of its derivatives)

Yes, I would be interested. I don't think it can be a drop in for some mods though (because of the width difference may make some levels impossible?) but it should be fine for Manic Miner.

Once I get some time I will convert those to my silly format (I store the data 1 column at a time in my engine - that was just a noob error though lol) and attempt to recompile from my source. I know it won't compile since I have lost the binary data for the 20th level top 8 lines (which is also used for the menu - which my rewrite does not have), but I can replace that with all 0s for now.

If you can do an 8 frame version I will definitely look into rewriting to see if I can increase speed to 50fps, I think it may be doable now with my current Z80 ability.

If I do a 50fps version I could also update half of the guardians on one frame and the other half on the next frame (since the enemies are still going to move at 25fps so that would work too).

EDIT: You posted this thread at a time when I was thinking of writing a level editor as well since adding new screens is a bit of a pain with my compressed format.

[gabriele amore]

Yes, I would be interested. I don't think it can be a drop in for some mods though (because of the width difference may make some levels impossible?) but it should be fine for Manic Miner.

..

ok can you make 8 boxes (one per each frame, each of the right width) so i know exactly where to draw my sprite frames?
G

[ParadigmShifter]

Width is the same. All would need to fit inside the same 16x16 box, anything else would require rewriting the sprite drawing.

If you are moving the position of the head by 2 pixels per frame (haven't checked, looks like you are though) you would want to move the head 1 pixel per frame instead for an 8 frame version. EDIT: So start with the head, then draw in body and legs as appropriate. You may want to use existing frames but you might want to shift some of them over a pixel to make good inbetween frames, I dunno? I can't draw though of course.

I also have the rest of the graphics from MM but they are in a silly format (stored column by column instead of each row) and they are all in hex lol

e.g. Here's my data for Willy, Robot from 1st level and the penguins

Code: Select all

; 16x16 sprites: bi-directional

gfx_willy0	db #06, #3e, #7c, #34, #3e, #3c, #18, #3c, #7e, #7e, #f7, #fb, #3c, #76, #6e, #77
		db #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00
gfx_willy1	db #01, #0f, #1f, #0d, #0f, #0f, #06, #0f, #1b, #1b, #1b, #1d, #0f, #06, #06, #07
		db #80, #80, #00, #00, #80, #00, #00, #00, #80, #80, #80, #80, #00, #00, #00, #00
gfx_willy2	db #00, #03, #07, #03, #03, #03, #01, #03, #07, #07, #0e, #0d, #03, #07, #06, #07
		db #60, #e0, #c0, #40, #e0, #c0, #80, #c0, #e0, #e0, #f0, #f0, #c0, #e0, #60, #70
gfx_willy3	db #00, #00, #01, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #01, #03, #07, #06, #00, #01, #03, #03
		db #18, #f8, #f0, #d0, #f8, #f0, #60, #f0, #f8, #fc, #fe, #f6, #f8, #da, #0e, #84
gfx_willy4	db #18, #1f, #0f, #0b, #1f, #0f, #06, #0f, #1f, #3f, #7f, #6f, #1f, #5d, #70, #21
		db #00, #00, #80, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #80, #c0, #e0, #60, #00, #80, #c0, #c0
gfx_willy5	db #06, #07, #03, #02, #07, #03, #01, #03, #07, #07, #0f, #0f, #03, #07, #06, #0e
		db #00, #c0, #e0, #c0, #c0, #c0, #80, #c0, #e0, #e0, #70, #b0, #c0, #e0, #60, #e0
gfx_willy6	db #01, #01, #00, #00, #01, #00, #00, #00, #01, #01, #01, #01, #00, #00, #00, #00
		db #80, #f0, #f8, #b0, #f0, #f0, #60, #f0, #d8, #d8, #d8, #b8, #f0, #60, #60, #e0
gfx_willy7	db #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00
		db #60, #7c, #3e, #2c, #7c, #3c, #18, #3c, #7e, #7e, #ef, #df, #3c, #7e, #76, #ee

gfx_robot0	db #1f, #39, #19, #0f, #9f, #5f, #ff, #5e, #9f, #1f, #0e, #1f, #bb, #71, #20, #11
		db #20, #e0, #e0, #20, #00, #80, #c0, #00, #c0, #80, #00, #00, #a0, #c0, #80, #00
gfx_robot1	db #07, #0e, #06, #23, #17, #17, #3f, #17, #17, #27, #03, #03, #06, #06, #1c, #06
		db #c4, #7c, #7c, #c4, #c0, #e0, #f0, #f0, #f0, #e0, #80, #80, #c0, #c0, #70, #c0
gfx_robot2	db #01, #03, #01, #00, #09, #05, #0f, #05, #09, #01, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #01
		db #f2, #9e, #9e, #f2, #f0, #f8, #fc, #e0, #fc, #f8, #e0, #e0, #e0, #e0, #e0, #f0
gfx_robot3	db #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #03, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #01, #00
		db #7d, #e7, #67, #3d, #7c, #7f, #fc, #78, #7c, #7f, #38, #38, #6c, #6c, #c7, #6c
gfx_robot4	db #be, #e7, #e6, #bc, #3e, #fe, #3f, #1e, #3e, #fe, #1c, #1c, #36, #36, #e3, #36
		db #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #c0, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #80, #00
gfx_robot5	db #4f, #79, #79, #4f, #0f, #1f, #3f, #07, #3f, #1f, #07, #07, #07, #07, #07, #0f
		db #80, #c0, #80, #00, #90, #a0, #f0, #a0, #90, #80, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #80
gfx_robot6	db #23, #3e, #3e, #23, #03, #07, #0f, #0f, #0f, #07, #01, #01, #03, #03, #0e, #03
		db #e0, #70, #60, #c4, #e8, #e8, #fc, #e8, #e8, #e4, #c0, #c0, #60, #60, #38, #60
gfx_robot7	db #04, #07, #07, #04, #00, #01, #03, #00, #03, #01, #00, #00, #05, #03, #01, #00
		db #f8, #9c, #98, #f0, #f9, #fa, #ff, #7a, #f9, #f8, #70, #f8, #dd, #8e, #04, #88

gfx_penguin0	db #0c, #1e, #1b, #1e, #39, #32, #3a, #3d, #6d, #69, #69, #61, #71, #be, #08, #1e
		db #00, #00, #00, #c0, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00
gfx_penguin1	db #03, #07, #06, #07, #0e, #0c, #0f, #0d, #1b, #1b, #16, #18, #1c, #2f, #05, #0f
		db #00, #80, #c0, #b0, #40, #80, #80, #c0, #40, #40, #40, #40, #40, #80, #40, #80
gfx_penguin2	db #00, #01, #01, #01, #03, #03, #03, #03, #06, #06, #06, #06, #07, #0b, #02, #07
		db #c0, #e0, #b0, #ec, #90, #20, #a0, #d0, #d0, #90, #90, #10, #10, #e8, #50, #e0
gfx_penguin3	db #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #01, #01, #01, #01, #01, #02, #00, #00
		db #30, #78, #6c, #7b, #e4, #c8, #e8, #f4, #b4, #94, #94, #84, #c4, #f8, #54, #f8
gfx_penguin4	db #0c, #1e, #36, #de, #27, #13, #17, #2f, #2d, #29, #29, #21, #23, #1f, #2a, #1f
		db #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #80, #80, #80, #80, #80, #40, #00, #00
gfx_penguin5	db #03, #07, #0d, #37, #09, #04, #05, #0b, #0b, #09, #09, #08, #08, #17, #0a, #07
		db #00, #80, #80, #80, #c0, #c0, #c0, #c0, #60, #60, #60, #60, #e0, #d0, #40, #e0
gfx_penguin6	db #00, #01, #03, #0d, #02, #01, #01, #03, #02, #02, #02, #02, #02, #01, #02, #01
		db #c0, #e0, #60, #e0, #70, #30, #f0, #b0, #d8, #d8, #68, #18, #38, #f4, #a0, #f0
gfx_penguin7	db #00, #00, #00, #03, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00, #00
		db #30, #78, #d8, #78, #9c, #4c, #5c, #bc, #b6, #96, #96, #86, #8e, #7d, #10, #78

... I told you it was a silly format. Note that frames 0-3 are facing right and frames 4-7 are facing left, so I'd have to manually mirror them as well (but I now know about dg so it is a lot easier to do that I think now!).

Reason the format is silly is because the first 16 bytes are the left hand side of the sprite then the next 16 are the right hand side of the sprite. That was a bad decision (but I think the reason I did it like that is I originally wanted to clip sprites against the edge of the screen and storing them in columns maybe is a good idea for that?). If I was going to do a rewrite again I would store them one row at a time.

I could also make all the enemies 8 frames I guess and mirror them at run time, which would not use up much extra space (there is a load of space left anyway I think I could get another 40 levels or so last time I looked?)

But it does mean I should be able to drop in your graphics to run a test today at some point. I have some Japanese Kanji lessons to catch up on though first.

[ParadigmShifter]

Work in progress. Just 1 frame in so far, 7 to go

[gabriele amore]

this has 8 frames as requested but it needs some more work . especially in the transition between the last and the first frame... but i like the way the standing willie looks
the video is intentionally slow (animation progresses at every key press)
PS I did not see the picture above, but i like this willie design better (it looks like he is wearing a jump suit)

[ParadigmShifter]

Ok, dunno which of the 4 frames you wanted me to include, went for 1, 2, 3 and 5.



Last 2 frames are smaller so head bobs which looks nice.

Now have to mirror them by hand lol

[ParadigmShifter]

this needs some more work . especially in the transition between the last and the first frame... but i like the way the standing willie looks
the video is intentionally slow (animation progresses at every key press)
PS I did not see the picture above, but i like this willie design better (it looks like he is wearing a jump suit)

Yeah that looks like what I am looking for, excellent.

May have to rewrite Manic Miner again now lol

I should be able to knock up a quick speed test with the worst performing level graphics to see if 50fps is actually feasible. I'd do a full rewrite of the graphics drawing code though using my knowledge gained in the last 14 years obvs

Worst levels are the Amoebatrons, Telephones and Solar Power I think. I'll see if it's even possible to draw that much to the screen in a frame.

I'd draw directly to the screen this time...

Note: Current code only supports 4 frames of animation so I'd have to start again from scratch I think. Code should not be too hard to port though, since I wrote the original code (although it was in 2010).

[gabriele amore]

Yeah that looks like what I am looking for, excellent.

May have to rewrite Manic Miner again now lol

I should be able to knock up a quick speed test with the worst performing level graphics to see if 50fps is actually feasible. I'd do a full rewrite of the graphics drawing code though using my knowledge gained in the last 14 years obvs

Worst levels are the Amoebatrons, Telephones and Solar Power I think. I'll see if it's even possible to draw that much to the screen in a frame.

I'd draw directly to the screen this time...

Note: Current code only supports 4 frames of animation so I'd have to start again from scratch I think. Code should not be too hard to port though, since I wrote the original code (although it was in 2010).

do you need my 8 frames?

[gabriele amore]

Work in progress. Just 1 frame in so far, 7 to go

btw that robot looks ugly to me... o would like to come up with something different... how wide can it be?

[ParadigmShifter]

I'd like them yeah... last ones were a bit awkward to type in to my code though. Is it possible to show a grid in AGD (which is what you are using?).

If AGD does not allow you to draw a grid (I got a bit confused where the left hand side of the image was) you could maybe draw them in a different drawing program that allows that (GIMP or Paint or something?)

I can knock up a 50fps walk anim test in no time at all. But that's all it will do, there will be no game on day 1

I will be using good old text graphics format so I have to convert what I see to

Code: Select all

dg ....####....####

If you can also flip them as well that would save me a lot of time too cos I have to do it manually which is a pain.

[ParadigmShifter]

btw that robot looks ugly to me... o would like to come up with something different... how wide can it be?

All horizontal guardians follow the same rule as Willy (16x16, must fit in a box, none of the sprites are shifted). Graphic I used were ripped (manually, via typing in hex numbers lol) from the original game. Robot looks better animating obvs (but it is identical to the original graphics).

Vertical guardians can be drawn at any y position so they have no rules they need to follow.

[gabriele amore]

see if this can help

[ParadigmShifter]

see if this can help

Those look good, although not sure about the sprite not being on the floor at all times? That might be a bit weird, since there is no idle frames? I can knock up a quick movement test anyway. EDIT: I could feasibly add an idle frame though but that would double the memory usage.

Now I can see the grid I can probably mirror them manually myself.

I could send you all my sprite data but it's not really in an artist friendly format (currently, each column rather than each row, and all in hex). There must be some rips of the sprite sheets somewhere online though?

I will change the graphics format for my test so it stores the graphics sensibly (since I will no doubt use the stack to blit them to the screen as fast as possible). Format will still be all text though (but as DG rather than DB in hex format).